Talking about Iran and the rest of the world, Interview by Dario Pio Muccilli, Star-Revue EU correspondent

Francesco Tamburini is a Professor at the University of Pisa and a recognized expert in Middle East and North Africa (MENA) studies. We have recorded this interview on June 26th, worried that the news coming from Iran would soon make our conversation outdated, but eventually we ended up discussing much wider issues on the Western civilization, China and the westernization of the world.

Prof. Tamburini, on June 23rd the Italian minister of foreign affairs, Antonio Tajani, suggested Rome as a venue for new negotiations with Iran. Rome has already hosted two previous rounds of negotiation with the US and has also successfully obtained from Iran the release of an Italian journalist (Cecilia Sala, ed) last January.

Is Italy a big diplomatic player with Teheran?
Historically, Italy has always had a foreign policy close to the southern side of the Mediterranean and to the Middle East, due to its geographical location. Italy always proposes herself as a mediator, nevertheless what they tell you in international fora is that you can talk as much as you want with the Italians, but it is difficult to materialize something. We had historically some ties with Iran, before the 90s with the Christian Democrats and the Socialists, but that is mostly gone.

In relation to Iran, could the incapacity to materialize something be more related to the fact that Italy has always been more interested in the Sunni rather than Shia community?
I don’t think it matters much. It is a geopolitical issue related to the fact that Italy in this context is a third party with no defined interests in the area.

If not Italy, Europe then. German foreign minister Johann Wadephul stated on June 23rd “Iran is only willing to negotiate with Europe,” do you believe him?
Generally, I would be wary of any German declaration after Chancellor Merz declared there is no reason to criticize the bombings and that Israel is doing the world’s dirty job.

Do you think they say so because of the Holocaust’s memory?
I think there is a variety of factors and among them I wouldn’t underestimate the insurgence of a certain German patriotism, a sense of reawakening of the nation. About the statement, Europe wasn’t born to have a foreign policy; it was mostly conceived as an economic community. It is atrophied by the bureaucracy of the European Commission and thus I could not imagine the EU playing the role of a crucial mediator in Iran. Internally, it is too fragmented among the Member States, and externally there is a cultural element to consider.

Cultural?
Yes, as the western civilization we are dying on a demographic point of view, we are still persuaded that everyone wants our living, but we must realize that there is a big part of the world which desires another system. It is paradoxical but today the biggest country upholding international law seems to be China…

I’m sorry, what about the controversies in the Chinese Sea, the Tibet, human rights, the Uighurs?
I agree with you, I am not pro-China, but do tell me, has China attacked anyone? Their principle is to strictly abide by the non-interference doctrine. Currently, they are developing fast and one day they could really win the battle for international hegemony and when and if it happens that could be devastating.

Yet it is Russia, not China playing a major role in the Iranian crisis…
They are intervening because Iran is deemed crucial for Russia on a geopolitical standpoint, especially after losing Syria, nevertheless Russia today has too many problems, above all the economic sanctions, and it surely wouldn’t be able to deliver on any threat made to the US. When negotiations with Ukraine were initially proposed, foreign minister Lavrov asked as a precondition the removal of sanctions, that meaning that they are hurting even though in supermarkets Russian can still find everything.

It seems to me from what you are saying that Europe is doomed, the US are going to be replaced by China and the Western civilization is gone. Haven’t we heard about that since the 60s and yet it never happened?
Look, in the recent conflict between India and Pakistan, a China-made fighter shot down a French one. Now, of course today if I were to rely on the world’s best pilots that would be the Americans, but that could change. And, again, I want to stress the cultural factor…

Sorry to interrupt, but, a provocation, you say the Western civilization is dying , but the development of China is measured by Western standards, everywhere around the world people consider their living improved when it comes closer to the Western standards, in Iran women protest for Western-like freedom!
But here you are confused, the decline of the West is something different from the westernization of the world, the latter is as unstoppable a process as the former, yet they can exist together. Migrants come to Europe because they dream of our living, Moroccans and Tunisians started to drink beer, China itself mingled capitalism with socialism. But I repeat, westernization is something that nowadays goes beyond the West, just look at the demographics!

So, the relationship between the West and the westernization is like between the UK and the English language, couldn’t we be the Cambridge or the IELTS certificating authority of westernization?
Honestly, I think we should pursue a Western way of multiculturalism, without any claim of assimilation, because where that was attempted, like in France, it failed dramatically.